Obama, Late Term Abortion, & Infanticide. (Chicago Senate Bill 1662)

JJ on Wed, 27th Aug 2008 10:42 pm 



babe. video hurts my heart…especially knowing little Cade was born at a younger age than what’s termed “late term”. thanks for being bold with your post. definitely not the only thing i disagree with Obama on..but man, i just dont know how someone’s able to vote that way.

JJ

stacey on Wed, 27th Aug 2008 11:44 pm 



thank you for your courage elizabeth! all i could muster was a wise-crack about michelle during hillary’s speech last night!

i am going to pass this video on, but i would like to do so by linking to your post, if that is ok. you are articulate and straight to the point. i would probably muddle it with my emotions!

and you are right, it is not my only issue with him. but even if it was, it would be enough! despite what everyone else says!

Kristy C on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 1:16 am 



Thank you for your sharing your opinion. I always love to hear what you have to say. I agree. Fundamentally, it shows his character. If you don’t mind, I too, would like to link to your post

Mommy Zabs on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 1:17 am 



link away friends

Brandi on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 7:39 am 



Thanks for posting that Zabs. I’ve been wanting a clear description of this, with facts. Doyou know any way to get the info on how they voted so I can post that too. . straight from the source? It’s so hard to believe that this is happening here in the US. We are not far away from complete genocide. After reading “Left to Tell” about the Rwandan genocide, I can see how quickly our country could “go there”. Lord, change our hearts! Turn our country towards you!

Thanks again,
Brandi

Brandi on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 7:53 am 



Google “Obama + late term abortion” and you are the FIRST TWO links that come up. . before MSNBC! What a hoot!

Neil on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 8:06 am 



Thanks for posting this. Technically speaking, Obama doesn’t just misread the Constitution as promising abortion, he sees it as promising a corpse. If the abortion “fails” then that shouldn’t prevent the corpse.

Grisly.

It is hard to believe so many people think he should be the leader of the free world.

Gerri on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 9:38 am 



I wonder if he will change his mind if his daughters abort his expected grandchildren someday??

Vevlet on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 9:58 am 



for a little more information on this topic, go to:
http://www.foxnews.com/hannityandcolmes/index.html
then scroll down to the videos and click on the one titled “Simply a Burden” - sadly, in my opinion, this just gets worse.

missy on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 10:10 am 



MZ~

I have been telling everyone I can about this very issue for months and they STILL don’t see the truth about Obama. It breaks my heart.

I don’t get why so many are choosing to be blind to the darkness and unknowns surrounding him….it is truly a cult of personality.

Velvet on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 11:39 am 



cult of personality is right. MZ, thanks for posting all of the links to the actual voting and proof of this!
what makes this even more crazy is that everyone from Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy voted AGAINST this, and Obama still voted for it - he was completely in the minority of his own party.

Johnson Quarry on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 3:15 pm 



I’m curious - If Republicans were pro-choice and Democrats were pro-life, would you then vote for a Democrat (everything else is the same)?

It’s an honest question - no bait.

Mommy Zabs on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 3:24 pm 



Johnson, that is a really great question… different people that are pro-life would probably have different answers. FOR ME? I would be in a real quandary. You see I believe in a lot of the world view that the republican party embraces, or at least used to embrace. I believe that the governments role in society has gotten far too big. I believe it should be for legislation (rule of law) and not a whole lot else. So in that mindset I’m with the GOP on a lot of issues (though i think the party has strayed from a lot of this). But if it was a republican candidate that had this voting record that Obama does on abortion I don’t know that I could even vote.

tami on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 3:39 pm 



oh man, the only words that come to my mind are,

lord
have
mercy.

for what it’s worth, i’m including a link to a short piece by glen stassen, a professor at fuller theological seminary in CA. for me anyway, it articulates something about the complexity of this issue and how it relates to faith and the upcoming election in november. maybe others will resonate too?

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1458

Johnson Quarry on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 3:40 pm 



Would you say then that people who believe a lot in the world view that the democratic party embraces but oppose abortion should not vote?

Mommy Zabs on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 3:49 pm 



Great article Tami. Definitely interesting food for thought. However greater than a failing of the government I see 2 things.

1. a failing of the church to make women feel embraced, taken care of, and like they have options. After all it was mandated to the church to take care of the poor, widow, and fatherless (I would say had there been more single moms back then like there are today those would have fit in as well.) The church is not doing enough in this area.

2. Our economy was dealt some real blows like 911. it is very hard to know what the economy would be like had that and the war not happened. Yes, bush’s war… I know.

Also, on my own personal experience… I know no one that has aborted in the last decade due to the cost of raising a child… and there is welfare for that anyway (though it would be great once again if they were embraced by the church so much they did not need welfare!)… I have known many who have aborted as a form of birth control. Not saying the numbers aren’t true. Just my personal experience.
-mz

Mommy Zabs on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 3:51 pm 



Johnson,
I have many friends in that position… some of which just totally see the abortion issue as passe and others of which are really struggling over this election for those very reasons. I can’t tell the what to do. I can just say what I would do in the position you proposed. In speaking for myself I could never vote for someone that has the voting record mentioned above in my post, no matter what party they are in. Reason being- it leads me to believe there is something seriously wrong with the person and it will show up in other areas eventually.
thanks again for the respectful dialog.
-mz

Johnson Quarry on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 4:01 pm 



I know the feeling…

I’m in that situation and I sometimes feel like both sides are so absolute about how to fix a problem. For instance, with poverty, republicans think public charity is the route to go and democrats think the government should get involved. On an issue like that, and like abortion (where some feel that a way to lower abortion rates is through better government services rather than just through laws), would you judge someone who thought differently in that way? If they thought voting for a democrat would actually lower abortion rates?

Mommy Zabs on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 4:14 pm 



I certainly would not judge someone’s heart whose real heart was that they hate abortion, but feel that voting for more government programs would lower the rate. They have the same heart I do if that is the case, we just have different opinions of how that is done. I don’t envy anyone in that position- especially as this stuff Obama voted on has come to light. To me it seems with their (or your) worldview the decision is excruciating. I can’t say for them, “you shouldn’t vote” but i can make sure they are informed with the facts to be able to really make their decision. AND I can say what I would do.

Honestly, if it weren’t for the MAJOR abortion issue with obama… I still would not vote for him because we have different ideas of how to solve problems… but I would say, “there is a man with a good heart, i disagree on how to get it done, but he has a good heart.” But in lieu of the information posted above I seriously question that we know what type of guy he really is. I just don’t know how someone is okay with leaving a baby to die. I just picture my 3 precious babies and how when they were born everything in me wanted to make them feel safe and loved. While someone may debate me that a baby is a “life” with rights or not in the womb or not… who can argue that a born living baby is a “life”. It is.

But Judge someone struggling with this decision because in their heart of hearts they believe that more government systems will cause less to abort? No I can’t come against them for that. But I do disagree.

-mz

Johnson Quarry on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 4:24 pm 



That’s fair. When it comes down to it, all the other stuff we disagree on is mainly just theoretical ideas and it seems as if both theories work and don’t work at different periods in the world’s history. As long as the motives for those different theories is the same, I can support our differences.

Thanks for indulging.

stacey on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 6:54 pm 



I wanted to check back in and so glad I did! The updates are wonderful and the comment discussions as well.

I posted and linked over here.

Thank you for sharing your passion so eloqently!

Supporting Obama? | Mommy Nurse on Thu, 28th Aug 2008 9:39 pm 



[...] friend of mine, MommyZabs, has a great post about Obama and also has videos to support it.  I encourage you to watch it.  Make your own [...]

meridith on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 10:14 am 



i am trying to post but it’s showing up blank
this is a test

Mommy Zabs on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 10:27 am 



Mer. your comment was great so it makes no sense. I will try and post it for you.

meridith on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 10:38 am 



part one
i feel nervous about posting here because i try really hard to stay out of political debates. i hate debates and arguments and therefore an election year is painful to me. mostly because i hate to see people who i love and respect argue or get hurt with each other because they don’t agree on politics.
so having said that i am going to offer up my little two cents. elizabeth, you know that you are my best friend and i respect your opinions and wisdom, you are like family to me. the reason i am putting this out here is because i want you to know that IF i do wind up voting for obama where my thought process is coming from. i also want to add another perspective to this healthy conversation on your blog. if anyone on here wants to debate me or pick this apart, i’m not likely to respond (see paragraph one).
another of the reasons i hate politics is because i feel like i am constantly being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. i don’t want to be a republican or democrat anymore. i am a christian. if and when i vote, i will vote based on my convictions after prayer and research not on a party. this is embarrassing to admit publicly but for many years i voted for republicans only and just voted for whoever the people in my life who i respected most told me to vote for.
that era has ended. i married a man who encouraged and challenged me to think for myself. so here is what i am seeing as i start to do research for myself.
abortion is murder. i hate it. i believe life begins at conception and i don’t understand how that is even up for debate. so i am pro-life all the way. the video you posted breaks my heart. here’s where the problem comes in……..this is not the only thing that breaks my heart.
the health care issue also breaks my heart. i believe that as christians we should be pro-life in more ways than just abortion. it’s not that i want to give up on the abortion issue, it’s that i want to keep working on it while we work on other issues that are equally important. just as i don’t understand how someone could choose to murder an unborn child, i do not understand how a insurance company callously deny treatment to a cancer patient and leave them to die. i believe all life is precious. i have heard stories from my brother, and infantry man who is fighting in iraq that would make you sick about children being killed there. i also think about the men and women dying there, those lives are precious too. so when it comes to choosing life, i think that the sanctity of life is being threatened on many fronts.

meridith on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 10:39 am 



part two
when it comes to a politicians character, i think that is a very hard thing to discern because there have been so many who voted for all the right things and seemed to have impeccable character and turned out to be wolves in sheeps clothing. these are just men. they are not perfect, just as we are not perfect and they have flaws. when we are talking about who we want to be the leader of our country of course we have to look at the person’s character but i think it’s really hard to truly ever know that about someone we don’t know personally. we can look at their fruit like the Bible tells us too. as for obama, voting on that abortion bill is a strike against him but when i am looking at the big picture and having to choose the lesser of all the evils that may not be the strike that …strikes him out for me. if i am going to look at character i also have to look at mccain and his treatment of his first wife, who was injured horribly in an auto accident while he was a POW and survived but was badly disfigured, then when after waiting all those years for him to return was left by him for a beautiful heiress, 15 years younger than him. more info in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html

meridith on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 10:39 am 



part three
so i look at all of this and i don’t know who to vote for but i know that something has to give because i don’t like the way i see our country going. since the abortion rates have gone up under bush’s administration i seriously question whether or not that should issue alone should be my deciding factor in this election.
i see having a black president as a tremendously good thing for our country in the grand scheme of things and i am very seriously inclined to vote for obama for that reason. for the women we serve at the homeless shelter. if he does not get elected i am concerned that it will send a very bad message to black people in our country and deepen old wounds. i do think we have a historical opportunity here. it would do so much good for all kinds of people in this country to have a minority president and to see first hand that anyone can rise out of poverty and become president. i think the message of hope is a good thing and this is a time when we really could use some hope for this country.
at the end of the day…. my hope is not in any president it is in JESUS. so no matter who we elect there are going to be problems, the media will bash them, half the country won’t like them and there will still be problems. hopefully we can elect someone to bring some good new policies and make good choices and steer our country in the right direction. but….this world is never going to be perfect and neither is a president.
i don’t know if i will even wind up voting, because these issues are so hard…. but i will keep praying and i will keep researching. thank you elizabeth for acknowledging that there are christians who care deeply about the poor and about life on both sides of the equation and for a place to discuss these issues. i totally respect your position and i pray that God will give us all wisdom.

Maggie on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 11:12 am 



Part 1:
Johnson Quarry is my new BFF and I agree with everything Meridith shared.

Two things I would like to add:
1. Despite the glaring offense of Obama’s record on this issue (nevermind the fact that I think oftentimes socially conservative repubs propose legislation like this not out of altruism, but out of an attempt to make dems look like the devil so that they look good in comparison), I think the climate on this issue is loosening up a bit and becoming more inclusive within the Democratic party. At the 1992 DNC, an anti-abortion Democrat was not permitted to speak. This year, the son of the Democrat, who is also anti-abortion, was invited to speak. Here’s an article about it: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-08-13-convention-casey_N.htm That is a big deal. Dems cannot be painted with the broad brush of being “baby killers.” So, is Obama really the most liberal dem when it comes to abortion? If that were the case, don’t you think they would not have let a pro-life dem speak at the convention? I don’t know, just something to think about.

Maggie on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 11:12 am 



Part 2:
2. Let me preface by saying that I know you probably didn’t intend it in this way, but I am uncomfortable with this sentence: “If you have a dry eye you are either one super anti-depressants or maybe you need a heart check.”
I watched the video and it did not make me cry. AND YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO ME. Trust me, my heart is not hardened to the issue of the sanctity of life of unborn babies and infants, even/especially the sick and disabled ones. So, since I’m not on anti-depressants and I really don’t think I’m in need of a heart check on this issue, my rather non-emotional response to the video left me feeling crappy and judged by you. We are all wired differently. Different issues discussed in different ways will pull at each of us differently and to different degrees. We all have different burdens to bear and causes to fight for — I believe that God has done that intentionally, so that we as his diverse body can get all the different types of work done. It would be like if I said, “If you live in a gated community, how can you claim to be a follower of Jesus?” “If you don’t cry when you watch footage of the genocide in Sudan, how can you claim to have any compassion at all?” Those are “drawing a line in the sand” statements that aren’t very constructive nor conducive to the unity and purpose we have in Christ. It kind of reminds me of how certain denominations look for only the gift of tongues as proof that one is filled with the spirit. I don’t think anyone should tell people how to feel on an issue or judge them for not reacting in a certain way. Our actions and expression of our personal conviction on an issue should be shared, but we shouldn’t tell people they should feel a certain way, as though it’s THE litmus test to determine how much they love Jesus/care about the unborn/insert your cause here. That’s sticky sticky stuff that I think only God can do. It’s not our role.

Of course please know that I share these points with no maliciousness at all. I love how you are thinking deeply about this and lots of other things. It’s helping me to think more deeply too.

To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr.’s daughter:
Overall, I hope and pray and work for the day when abortion is unthinkable. UNTHINKABLE. I think there are many different ways to go about achieving that.

Erin on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 11:23 am 



Elizabeth~

That’s how I know you, girl! (this is Erin Johnson posting) ! =) I just wanted to chime in here. I have appreciated checking in on your blog from time to time and just want to comment that the tone of this discussion is so honoring to all involved and to God. Thank you!! for providing a forum for different perspectives to be shared…a safe place, in a sense. I RARELY ever encounter the opportunity to have Christian dialogue on political positions that honors diverse perspectives.

Meredith~ I so appreciate your point of view and find that I resonate a lot with what you’ve shared. My journey (politically) seems similiar to yours in recent years. I woke up this a.m. with much on my mind after last nights obama speech. i don’t know…something about all those thousands of people cheering for him seemed a bit strange as I realized that we know very little about his leadership in the public realm. as a follower of Jesus, it just felt disconcerting. HOWEVER, I believe that many changes DO need to come to the approaches our leaders take, ESPECIALLY foreign policy.

i have been thinking of how our government has set up checks and balances in place, and elections are one of those. so in THAT sense, voting is our responsibility to hold our government accountable and make changes when needed (rein in wrong policies, etc.) That would lead me to ponder electing someone who will right many wrongs and balance the ongoing pendulum swing. this HAS to be done. however, i am with you, liz, on the rationale that someone who can consciously vote for late-term abortion practices seems to have a major judgment error. but I ALSO believe that Bush has had major judgment errors as well in his approach to war, torture, unilateralism, failing to disclose contraversial government policies, etc. I especially feel troubled that we as Christians have been quick to support the candidate (in the past) that said all of the right things, spiritually, only to find out that in practice they acted contrary to scripture. very difficult times, as we can’t just avoid the whole arena–we are accountable for our role in this society. yikes!

Mommy Zabs on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 11:23 am 



Maggie-
You are right about that comment. I will delete it. I’m truly sorry Maggie for making you feel judged.

regarding what you wrote. As much as I admire you I disagree with point one. But I know we have to agree to disagree. This bill was not introduced to make Obama look bad but because of what was going on in the hospitals.

Mommy Zabs on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 11:41 am 



Erin, Awesome to hear from you. I actually agree with just about everything you said. Would this be bush again i would be pretty unenthusiastic about voting for him - but I would. He was a disappointment to me. I find that I agree much more with McCain than bush (eg. torture etc.) But this post isn’t tooting the horn of McCain but rather intended to question the person of Obama.

Last nights Obama worship was a little strange. Let’s face it though, most politicians are probably narcissists. Just working in the small christian music industry I see the crowds cheering change who some of the artists are as people as it goes to their heads… I can’t imagine what having that many people worshiping you could do. But I don’t hold him accountable for that. Just wonder.

Erin on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 11:55 am 



I recognize that those thousands of people were genuinely excited about obama (however i think the setting was a bit grandiose). but as a Jesus follower, it made me question my allegiance in any situation, especially the political realm. we are called to speak truth to power. so how do we remain citizens of an altogether different Kingdom (pardon the christianese) …a wholly separate entity that calls ALL leaders to account and yet still have to pick a lesser of two evils. i truly believe we need a fresh change from the republican mentality (minus the pro-life stance). BUT….what to do??

mzzterry on Fri, 29th Aug 2008 5:13 pm 



Thanks for fighting this fight.

I have six baby nieces or nephews that were aborted. Five by my substance addicted sister. She chose abortion as a form of birth control because it was free and easy to obtain. I fight with everything in me to change this. This is a hot button issue with me for sure.

Amy Taylor on Fri, 5th Sep 2008 12:27 am 



When will we just do away with the democrat and republican parties? I hardly know of anyone who is as extreme as either side. When will we just have people with ideals - NOT representing a “club”, that we can vote for? Surely there is a qualified person out there who is pro-life all the way. Pro-life for the unborn, pro-life for the poverty stricken, pro-life for those in jail, pro-life for the uninsured, pro-life in every sense of the word.
That’s the day I’m looking forward to.

stephanie boye on Mon, 8th Sep 2008 2:43 am 



I am very happy to read from women who are pro-life like me. Pro-life or not I can not understand how anyone could know what partial birth abortion is and support it. It is uncivilized to say the least. But Obamas denial to help victims of botched abortions is the most inhumane thing I have ever heard. Why are more people not horrified by what this man, this “Christian” , stands for. And I was a loyal 20 year viewer/fan of OPRAH, her support of Obama has taken her off my tivo list and made me lose all respect for her. Isn’t she a “Christian” too? Wow I had no idea you could support murder and be a “Christian”, who knew??

BT on Mon, 8th Sep 2008 9:41 am 



From a male member of society, I would like to thank you for this post. It’s refreshing reading a blog that has linked evidence. Especially when I need it because I often tell people about Obama’s stance on late term abortions, and although they don’t like late term abortions, they don’t believe me.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Diana on Thu, 25th Sep 2008 11:39 am 



I have very mixed feelings about this video. As one who had five babies and have one living child today, seeing the video was emotional. However, while both candidates have flaws … I think we, prenatal and post-natal, have to take some responsibility. My next newsletter is about the ‘them or they’ thinking. Blame rarely falls on one individual.

The physicians who induce forced abortions (when there is no medical reason to do so) should be held accountable. Mothers who are induced, should be accountable for babies dying alone – if for no other reason than to process their grief (and/or guilt). One of my daughters died in the hospital. I never got to hold her because she lived on dialysis and machines that kept her alive. So the doctor brought her in when she passed. While I donated her body to science, holding her is a memory I’ll always have. For those who have 4th trimester abortions and there’s not a legitimate medical reason, they should see what they are doing to a human being.

I probably shouldn’t respond to this right now. The video invokes emotion, and my last child was a medical abortion. The doctor said that if I delivered, I wouldn’t survive. My (now X-husband) wasn’t there to support me. Alone, I dealt with the situation humanely. Others should too. That’s what this video should be about – the inhumanity we are capable of.

Ode to Road Rage Boy That Did Not Like My NoBama Sticker : Mommy Zabs on Mon, 6th Oct 2008 8:28 pm 



[...] objects into it’s head.  Oh yeah and if that doesn’t work, he would rather the baby be left to die than to make the woman second guess her decision. [...]

don't get it on Sun, 26th Oct 2008 6:08 pm 






don't get it on Sun, 26th Oct 2008 6:21 pm 



Correction on his vote on one of the pieces of legislation of the Born Alive Package…he did vote no…again the reason provided is as stated.

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