Is God Cleaning House?
November 11, 2007 by Mommy Zabs
Filed under Christianity, Current Events, Featured
Again, another snarky title. But I want this to garner serious thought both from my Christian readers and those that wouldn’t consider themselves “Christian”.
If you have watched a lot of news lately you may have realized that the US Senate Finance Committee headed by (R) Chuck Grassley has initiated an investigation into 6 prominent evangelical, specifically pentecostal leaders finances. These are all leaders who gain incredible donations for their ministries. They are also known for their extravagant lifestyles that include private jets, Rolex watches, Armani suits,lavish mansions etc. The six being investigated are as follows:
- Randy and Paula White of Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa, Florida.
- Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas;
- David and Joyce Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Missouri;
- Kenneth and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas;
- Bishop Eddie Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church and Bishop Eddie Long Ministries of Lithonia, Georgia;
- Creflo and Taffi Dollar of World Changers Church International and Creflo Dollar Ministries of College Park, Georgia.
Senator Grassley has been quoted as saying,
“I don’t want to conclude that there’s a problem, but I have an obligation to donors and the taxpayers to find out more. People who donated should have their money spent as intended and in adherence with the tax code.”
These leaders, while not under any lawful obligation to cooperate with the investigation, are encouraged to do so and were faxed letters from Senator Grassly on Friday asking for them to submit their financial records due to him by December.
Now for those who aren’t familiar with the greater Christian church, this is a topic many Christians are split on. The extremes are those that think their pastors should be blessed more than anyone else financially (like the congregates of these ministries) and the other extreme is thinking that pastors should almost suffer without having their means paid for.
Where do I stand? Somewhere in between. I think the pastors lifestyle needs to represent the people he ministers too. I believe that leaders are called to a HIGHER level of accountability than others in the church and should therefore be above reproach by making things such as their salary, available to the church body.
Why does the government care? The fact is, churches have a whole different tax accountability. For one their ministries are tax exempt. Therefore any income they are generating in excess under the guise of tax exempt not for profit ministry SHOULD come under scrutiny. If you know me at all you know I’m not into big government or for government getting involved in issues that they shouldn’t. You may be surprised to find that I think this investigation is perfectly legit.
I don’t believe all these ministries are necessarily doing wrong. I can tell you for one that I have been ministered to over and over again by Joyce Meyer. She does appear to live a lavish lifestyle but I have also heard that her ministry money is legit. I do know with the rates that speakers draw in… she may have perfectly accounted for money she pays taxes on. But who knows. What is accountability going to hurt?
There is a teaching among some of these types of churches that the church body has no right to know what is being done with the finances and that they should simply have “faith” that their leaders are doing right. Having seen enough corruption in the church in my 30 years I refuse to be a member of a mega-church (one that could afford it) to that isn’t voluntarily audited. Where is my faith? In God, not in leaders. Leaders are called to greater accountability, not less. God calls us to faith in him, never once mentions us having faith in men.
I wish so badly I had video of an interview I saw with Ken Bear president of the Evangelical Counsel for Finance Association. He handled himself so well. Not one of these 6 belong to the ECFA . The ECFA is an accredidation agency to over 2000 evangelical charities and non-profits. They also advocate for good governments, financial accountability and integrity. His organization requires these commitments from churches and charities that come on board with them:
7 standards of stewardship:
- Independant board of directors-At least 5 people.
- Board is not family.
- Board is not employees.
- Board provides over site for the CEO or pastor.
- Audited Financial Statements.
- Conflict of Interest Policy.
- Ethical Fundraising
I think those sound great! So why do some churches have problem with these? Especially any of the large ones?
Some connection has been made in the media that all these preachers practice prosperity gospel. Bear was extrememly above reproach as he refused to define that term. He went on to say that he doesn’t think people have a problem with the teaching that if you give in life to God, you will prosper so much as they have a problem with the messege, “If you give to MY ministry, you will get something special”. Well said.
I don’t see this as over-regulation by the government and neither does Ken Bear. He informed that Grassley has asked the same questions in the past of the Smithsonian Institute, the Red Cross, and the American University in the past few years.
While this is all sad and definitely a blemish on the name “christian”, these leaders should not be tolorated if they are doing anything that would be taking advantage of their followers to such a great nature. The world has to see that other Christians will not even tolorate it. We should be the most saddened by this.
What are your thoughts? Is it time someone force these ultra-leaders into some accountability? Try not to let how much they may have had good influence on your life effect your answer. Should we not show the world that we are capeable of being transparent and still blameless in our dealings with money?
(Sidenote: What is sad Is I have this desire to fax Senator Grassley a few more suggestions of who he should look into… )
MamaLady on Sun, 11th Nov 2007 4:29 pm
I have always found these (save Gloria Copeland. But she is guilty by association, I guess!) very creepy in deed. And suspect.
I have no problem with God blessing his ministers financially. But extravagance for the sake of a prosperity doctrine is just wrong.
Jeff Cannell on Sun, 11th Nov 2007 7:01 pm
with all the money at these guys disposal you think they would get a clue regarding hairstyles– could you trust that hair?
stacey on Sun, 11th Nov 2007 10:59 pm
your last two posts have been great! must admit, most days i get caught up in my routine as mommy and caretaker of all to remember to tune my brain into some other important matters.
yes, these people (whether or not i agree with their teachings) and anyone like them with large ministeries need SERIOUS accountability. sadly, many have had the preverbial wool pulled over their eyes regarding how their donations are being used (i suspect!). and you are right, the honest ones would probably gladly hand over their financial records.
good thing jesus didn’t need cable!
matt on Mon, 12th Nov 2007 9:40 am
i dont think it is sad that your desire is to let the senator know of others. my geuss is this is just round one of many. those names are some of the biggest in the health and wealth gospel.
i know that there are significantly better uses for the money than the extravaganza that the money went to. on the other, people need to be more discerning than giving to fools. crefflo dollar even said in one sermon “who is the bigger fool, the one who spends the money or the fool following the fool who gave the money”
in the event of any inpropriety, take away the tax exempt status. make them pay heavy fines to the government and even incarciration if necessary.
M2 on Mon, 12th Nov 2007 1:47 pm
“people need to be more discerning than giving to fools”
In a nutshell right there Matt…
Heidi Jo on Mon, 12th Nov 2007 4:36 pm
oh i have thoughts…but it might be best to keep thoughts to myself some times:0)
aren’t they just ‘naming it and claiming it?’ the philosphy they teach their viewers?
michael on Tue, 13th Nov 2007 2:58 pm
“Having seen enough corruption in the church in my 30 years I refuse to be a member of a mega-church (one that could afford) to be voluntarily audited.”
I’m confused by this sentence. Can you explain what you mean? I thought you guys went to VCC. Is that incorrect?
Next Stop Lauderdale on Wed, 14th Nov 2007 10:54 am
This will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Don’t know all these characters, but I know a couple are creeps, but I have presumed that Joyce Meyer is the real deal. We’ll see I suppose………dad
Amy Bayliss on Wed, 14th Nov 2007 11:48 am
I do have to believe that God will serve justice to anyone taking advantage of His people in His name. I do think they should be blessed more than average, after all they are taking on a much greater responsibility. However, a wardrobe of Rolexs and a car lot in front of a 12 million dollar home is beyond ‘blessed’. My heart couldn’t be blessed living in that home knowing that others are going hungry and can’t pay their bills.
That said, I can vouch for Joyce Meyer from my church’s standpoint anyway. She has donated extravagant amounts numerous times for missions trips and other needs. After Hurricane Katrina, she personally flew here and gave a group of united churches the funds to help restore the areas affected. She has provided many other things our church needed to serve the community in the way of purchasing food, clothing, health and dental care and many other things.
Jim on Wed, 14th Nov 2007 2:11 pm
There is a MUST hear audio compilation of joyce meyers preaching mixed with another preacher and audio music at http://www.fleebabylon.com
It is on the lower lefthand side.
Hope it blesses you. You can find more resources to encourage you in your walk at the same site such as the article “American Idol”
In Christ - Jim
http://www.freecdtracts.com/comps/carter_conlin_vs_joyce_meyer.mp3
In Christ - Jim
Amy Bayliss on Wed, 14th Nov 2007 5:51 pm
“So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” John 8:7
Every preacher I have ever listened to has said something that “I” saw as unbiblical. That only makes sense though since God clearly says that we will all fall short. That is why we must have our own personal relationship with God and study His word for ourselves.
“What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;” Romans 3:9
Who are we to say that we know the intentions of anyone’s heart? Let the Lord judge. That is His job. I would hate to be judged because I was self-righteous and presumed I knew better than another one of His children.
If we believe any of these people have done wrong then we must take it to God in prayer. We must not judge them or we too will be sinning.
“Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.” James 4:11
tami on Fri, 16th Nov 2007 12:32 am
i was just having a discussion this morning with some friends about issues surrounding money and faith, how we are each in our own way right now struggling with that tension– a friend proposed that maybe the question to be asked is not so much about how much we give, but rather, how much we keep. i suppose that’s why the discipline of percentage (tithing) is so important to adhere to. hmmm… the widow’s mite thing, you know? i would be curious to know what portion of these pastors incomes are going back out into the world for acts of service and love.
but in the end, i suppose it’s more important to think about these things in light of my own habits rather than to judge those of others– where am i choosing to spend my money and can i be more faithful in my stewardship? i suppose if i’m honest, it would be clear that the answer to the question that my friend proposed about how much i’m giving vs. how much i’m keeping would be a shameful one.
much to think about, no?
M2 on Mon, 19th Nov 2007 2:43 pm
Thanks for all the scripture but judge a man (or woman) by their fruit… Biblical right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDzB2XvWOb8
These people use bad magic tricks to bilk incredibly suggestible audiences out of money, & because they’ve declared themselves a church, all they have to do is make sure they don’t step too far over a few lines, & the IRS is scared to go after them. It’s a sweet racket if you have no conscience…. There, I’ve “judged”!
Amy Bayliss on Mon, 19th Nov 2007 6:33 pm
hmm… I do believe that the scripture says that we will “know” them by their fruit and not “judge” but please correct me if I am wrong.
Please understand that I am not saying these people have done no wrong. I personally don’t know. I don’t agree with lavish lifestyles for anyone especially when their cost for one hotel stay could feet a small country for a year but, who am I to judge? We all sin. We can judge an act but not a person. I am simply stating, based on the Word of God, that we too shouldn’t sin by judging people.
LayGuy on Wed, 21st Nov 2007 1:30 am
Hi Zabs,
Mr KooKoo from TBN (aka Paul Crouch) has responded to this issue on the Charisma Magazine:
http://www.charismamag.com/crouchrebuttal/
Personally I think the above 5 ministries should all be investigated and dealt with accordingly. I can’t stand all 5 mentioned and “hate” the doctrines they preach.
But that’s just me.
annNEE on Sat, 24th Nov 2007 10:34 pm
I was bothered to find in my 90 year old grandmother’s mail a solicitation for a 7 million dollar building fund for Benny Hinn’s ministry.
What bothered me most wasn’t the fact they were after my grandmother to raise money for this building, but rather how they expressed this dire need and neglected to share the fact that Benny Hinn lives in a 10 million dollar mansion himself. This house is his “parsonage”, meaning his house is paid for by his ministry. He didn’t pay for it and I believe that means he doesn’t have to pay taxes on it either.
(Ok, maybe what bothered me most was that I knew my poor `ol granny was sure to fork over the money to the man!!)
I would urge anyone interested in learning more about the numerous unsubstantiated claims Benny Hinn has made over the years to visit http://www.equip.org and also to watch this video http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/media/miracles.wmv
annNEE on Sat, 24th Nov 2007 10:44 pm
In response to the comment concerning judging:
I think we have a responsibility to God and his people to stand up for the oppressed. Surely Jesus has called us to such an action.
When people are taken advantage of and lied to, people that have real needs and are “sowing their seeds” into these “ministries”, I think that God would expect for us to help those among us that are being oppressed and marginalized by the very men and women who say they are trying to help them.
This isn’t mere gossiping about others faults. I would argue that there is something much greater going on here when people are taken advantage of and led astray in this manner, especially when it is happening in the name of God. If this, after all, is what is happening in any of these cases. I welcome an investigation that will hopefully shed light on any wrong doing.
Eddy on Sun, 25th Nov 2007 11:55 am
Your boy Huckabee is a featured guest on this week’s Believer’s Voice of Victory with your other boy Kenneth Copeland. Hope he said no to riding in Ken’s fancy car…
See ‘em here
Amy Bayliss on Sun, 25th Nov 2007 1:09 pm
Hi annNee and others…
I do believe that there is a big misunderstanding here. I previously quoted scripture on judging because of a link to a site that is very judgemental of a couple of pastors (Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer) that I know have personally helped our people and state during very catastrophic times. They donated millions of dollars in addition to supplies, labor, clothing, food, and so much more. They have paid for missions trips, medical and dental trucks to provide free care, opened up centers to feed, help, and clothe people in our poor communities. I then responded to a comment that I believe quoted scripture incorrectly. I apologize if I came across in a accusing way in regards to gossiping. Honestly, that never crossed my mind, ever. If I have offended anyone please accept my sincerest apologies. I will try to be more careful with my words.
FYI: I also welcome an investigation. I also agree that if they are taking advantage of others that they should be prosecuted. I also am not(at all) a Benny Hinn fan but I shouldn’t judge the man (not saying that I never have) because I don’t know his heart and God said not to. I now try to pray for God to expose any wrongs he’s done. There is a difference between being judgemental and using discernment. One causes us to sin and one keeps us away from sin. We can know not to give to some of these people without judging them. That’s all I’m saying….
plodon on Tue, 27th Nov 2007 3:01 am
Yes, absolutely. However, this sort of thing should be taken care of “in-house” long before anyone outside of a church needs to be involved. Government should definitely not be needing to step in here. Dangerous road, there. See, folks who secretly or openly detest anything to do with “church stuff” will progressively use government to squash the church (but like Billy Graham said: “I’ve read the last page of the Bible - everything turns out alright”). I wonder if the people making the potentially detestable situations know, or care, about the damage they might be doing? I agree, if an organization isn’t totally up-front and transparent about thier finances, don’t give ‘em a penny. However, I think when it comes to things like an old lady giving money she maybe can ill afford to anybody, it’s all about intent. I firmly believe God honors her act of giving regardless of how her gift may or may not be misused. Sad, yes, but her intent was right, and God knows that. Again I say - these kinds of investigations, whether or not they discover any wrongdoing, should not have to happen. Christians need to simply have the moral courage to do what needs to be done. Leaving your house to be straightened up by others should not ever be necessary.
Yep. I second the motion.
By the way, Do you know that the lavish lifestyle thing may (and I emphasize may) apply to me and you, and not just “those people”? Really, it’s a matter of scale. Did you know that if you have change in a jar somewhere you are among something like the top %8 of the world’s wealthiest people? The regular-to-us seeming houses many of us in North America live in might seem as extravagent to someone in a third-world slum as a ten-million-dollar mansion seems to us. A little story on perspective kind of illustrated this for me. An African guy prized the non-working portable stereo he acquired when some foreigners left it behind. He proudly told the tv crew that he was saving up for a screwdriver so he could eventually fix it. If you’re reading this, then most likely you, like me, could afford to pick up a cheapie screwdriver without much problem.
Not everything that counts can be counted,
and not everything that can be counted counts.
-Albert Einstein
All I’m sayin is that this issue is simply a matter of scale and probably most of us have chickens comin’ home to roost on this one. Should there be accountability for things done in God’s name? %100 yes. However, it should the church itself (meaning the people) that expect it and act to ensure it, and that nobody “outside” should ever have to be involved at all.
MommaKnows on Sat, 8th Dec 2007 12:35 am
Well said! I agree with your post completely. I didn’t read all the comments. The Bible says that teachers and pastors come under greater accountability, and this should include finances. My church isn’t what would be considered a ‘megachurch’, with around 1200 Sunday morning attendees (the total of two services) and 500 or so actual members. Their financial statements are available for scrutiny at any time. They issue quarterly statements for members if they want them, and publish their whole budget and financial holdings yearly at the annual business meeting. There are no secrets.
Regina Baker on Sat, 29th Dec 2007 2:21 pm
God said: “touch not my anointed, do my prophets no harm”… (1 Chron 16:22 & Psalm 105:15)
…people wake up. God is not pleased with self righteous, self made up judgement to please your own-selves. No one has the right to say how God blesses and whether or not they have a problem with the way He blesses…
did He bless you wake up this morning?
did He bless your kids to have a roof over their heads?
did He bless you to have food in your pantry? did He bless you … oh I was going to say be in your right mind this morning… (I can’t tell by this post)
God is love and that’s what He desires. That we love one another as He loves us! He will take care of anything HE is not pleased with… He doesn’t need our help.
All He asks for is our obedience, Amen?
Let us ALL ask for forgiveness. God loves each and everyone of those people you wrote about just like He loves you.
taughtbygrace on Fri, 11th Jan 2008 11:41 am
Hate is a very strong word. How can you hate a ministry for what it teaches if they are teaching biblical principles?
I believe a renewing of one’s mind is at hand. We need to understand that the government, in all its forms, rob us each and every day, but what single out a ministry because they are large. Can we have the same inquiry of the government that he is asking of the ministries. I don’t think so.
Maybe they should ask all the people who play sports to give an account for their money too, since America’s favorite passtimes seem to be more serious than our school teachers, nurses and social workers who are trying to do something to benefit the people in our society.
Tammy on Wed, 30th Apr 2008 8:10 pm
You may think Joyce Meyer is “legit”, but just ask to see the financial reports of where ALL the money her ministry takes in goes and see what kind of stonewall you come up against. Christians are called to not even have the appearance of anything sinful, yet Mrs. Meyer refuses to disclose where the money her ministry receives is actually going. Think about this: Her ministry receives on average $8 million a MONTH - not year, but month! I’m sorry, but I disagree with you about her ministry being “legit”. Anyone who truly has nothing to hide would be absolutely willing and transparent in their ministry finances being open to the public.
Jimmy on Mon, 23rd Jun 2008 6:57 pm
This has been an interesting for the charismatic community. I am curious to see what the state of affairs will be when the dust settles.
Henry on Wed, 1st Oct 2008 7:46 am
Personally i think these people are all leeching scum and should be either prosecuted to the highest extent of the law for “stealing” from silly unsuspecting Infirmed and elderly/low intelect folk…. best thing to do with the likes of Copeland and his Wife and Myers/Hinn/Dollar etc is use them all for target practice for the military….might save a few bucks in cardboard….. just another way of making our planet a bit more green……
almondjoy on Sat, 31st Jan 2009 7:34 pm
Frankly, I believe in separation of state from church. Keep the government out of churches as they so strongly insist on it the other way around. Church leaders should be accountable to their own church laws. Unless they break the law of the land. While keeping always most important the salvation of souls and the Holy Word of God. A church is not a democracy. You don’t vote for the most popular scripture passages, and dismiss the rest. You accept, love and try your best to follow all the teachings of Jesus Christ, and when we fail, we pick ourselves up and ask God for forgiveness and keep our eyes on heaven.